Chris Grayling Talks To TJ

by Justin Cohen - Tuesday 10th February 2009


Chris Grayling was elevated to the post of Shadow Home Secretary in David Cameron's reshuffle last month. In a wide-ranging interview with TJ last week, he discussed his zero-tolerance approach to anti-Semitism and hate preachers, and his belief in the importance of Britain being an 'honest broker' in the Middle East.

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JN: What would a Conservative administration do to tackle anti-Semitism, which, as you know increased significantly during the Gaza conflict?

CG: I know that people in this country feel extremely strongly about events that take place internationally, whether it's about the events in Iraq or whether it's about what's happening in Gaza. It's really important that those strong feelings don't manifest themselves within the UK in the form of hate crimes and I think we've got to be really robust. I think there's clear expectation on the police and on the prosecuting authorities that we will treat hate crimes firmly, fairly and squarely wherever they happen and against whoever they take place. The incidents of anti-Semitism in the wake of what happened in Gaza, the violent assaults, the acts of vandalism are utterly unacceptable and should be prosecuted with the full force of the law.

JN: Do you think though that Labour have done enough to address the issue of anti-Semitism?

CG: My sense of the Labour Party's record in community relations is that they have not done a good enough job at bridging the community divides. The policies which they've carried out for the past ten years have tended to segregate rather than unify different community groups. I want to see different groups, different communities, different religions in this country in friendly partnership rather than in conflict regardless of what may be happening internationally. I think multiculturalism in this country has not worked. We've ended up allowing our communities to become in many respects too segregated and I think the challenge for the next government is to find all ways possible to break down the divides that exist between our different communities. It will range from, on the one hand, smart work by local authorities to try and ensure that the steps they take locally, the groups that they support and the groups they encourage, all steer us in the direction of greater community knowledge and understanding. Through to government setting a lead individually - as shadow ministers and as would-be ministers, we should be looking to try to foster debate, dialogue, partnership, friendship across community divides and making sure that laws we pass don't have unintended consequences in terms of exacerbating the divides that sometimes exist.

JN: One particular problem regarding anti-Semitism has been on the internet. Is there anything more that can be done to tackle that?

CG: The internet poses a real challenge for us all because many of the things that appear on it don't originate from within the UK and the internet is basically supra national. My view is that in so far as is possible to do so, the authorities in Britain should treat hate crime on the internet, anti-Semitism on the internet and other forms of hate crime in the way that they would do in such issues appeared through a different medium. I think we also have to be realistic and say we're not going to be able to solve the problem entirely because so much of the internet happens outside the scope of action of national government.

JN: Last year, the government introduced new measures to tackle hate preachers. Would a Tory government continue that approach?

CG: We've been very strong, David Cameron's been very outspoken in saying that we should not, for example, be allowing into the country preachers of hate who are actively going around the world advocating violence. We've got to be very clear and tough about that. We are a free country with freedom of speech but freedom of speech does not include inciting other people to commit acts of violence against different communities or different individuals. I'm very strongly in favour of a tolerant, thoughtful multicultural society where we listen to, we talk to, we understand the issues and challenges of everyone in our society. But standing up on a platform in Britain and urging people to attack others is not acceptable, will not be acceptable and we should not tolerate people who do it. I think in many respects the government has been slow to act over preachers of hate.

JN: There was a great deal of disquiet over the case of Ibrahim Mousawi, the editor of Hezbollah television station Al Manar, who has been allowed into this country. Are you able to pledge that a Conservative government would make sure that he would never come into the country?

CG: David Cameron and Pauline Neville-Jones have both criticised the government over the issue and both said that he should not be allowed into the country. I would never say never in all circumstances because you can't foresee circumstances that might turn up unexpectedly. But as a general principle I can't see that we would be granting visas to somebody in that position to come and preach in this country. And the only reason I have the caveat is because history has some funny twists to it.

JN: Have you ever visited Auschwitz or Yad Vashem?

CG: I've been to both. I don't think anybody could go to Yad Vashem and not be extremely moved. I think particularly the recital of all the names of the victims is an extraordinarily moving experience. Likewise Auschwitz, actually I think the bit that's most moving is Birkenau rather than Auschwitz because that's really where the worst excesses of the Holocaust took place, where the mass gas chambers were. The Auschwitz camp itself is much much smaller, but I mean they're both places where you couldn't help but be profoundly moved by visiting.

JN: When were you in Israel?

CG: I was in Israel back in the 1980s - my wife and I went on holiday there. It's a fascinating country to visit, we toured all round. We went to Jerusalem, we went down to Eilat through the desert. It was the time of the intifada so it was obvious that there were tensions there though it wasn't a time when there was particular violence taking place. I think the real sense you get from visiting Israel is just how close everything is and that clearly makes it much more complicated to find a solution because you are talking about pieces of land that are next door to each other literally. But ultimately all of us hope that a solution can one day be found that everyone in that area can live in peace together. Ultimately that is the only way forward.

JN: What do you think of any suggestion that Holocaust denial should be made an offence in Britain?

CG: I've always thought that Holocaust denial is so patently absurd that I don't think right minded people would treat it even remotely seriously. I think the Holocaust is such a clear part of the recent history of Europe, is so clearly recorded in history, is so clearly based on extensive evidence, that frankly I've always regarded Holocaust deniers as absurd. Now I appreciate that in some cases Holocaust denial can be more than simply absurd, can be a view that can carry broader implications with it and can be destabilising. I condemn Holocaust denial without reserve, but I'm not sure we need to start specifically legislating against it.

JN: As Home Secretary, how high up on your agenda would community relations be?

CG: Very high, I think it's extremely important. One of the jobs of the Home Secretary and one of the aspirations of a Shadow Home Secretary should be to improve community relations and dialogue between communities. And to try and help tackle and remove the causes of extremism. Extremism should have no place in our society, you deal with extremism by breaking down the divides between communities, building greater understanding between communities. Regardless of what people's views may be about what's taken place in Gaza... I think the British position should be as honest brokers, not to be judgemental one way or the other, because if we do we'll end up taking sides. Right now I think what we need to do is to try and help deal with the root causes of the problem and try and help Israel and the Palestinians to move towards a lasting peace. I think we have to be honest brokers in that and try and take a dispassionate position in the middle.

JN: Do you think that Britain did take a dispassionate, honest broker view during the conflict?

CG: On balance, I think we got it about right. I think it would be a mistake for this country to march in both feet first taking one view or the other. What do we want from the international community at a time like this? It is mediation skills that can lead to a lasting settlement, not partisanship one way or the other.

JN: What are your views of those who call for academic or trade boycotts of Israel?

CG: I think you should not give broad brush answers over those things. My view is that over the years the Israelis have done things that are wrong, the Palestinians have done things that are wrong. Actually right now, I don't think the language we should be using is about boycotts, I think the language we should be using is all about how the International community can help broker, mediate a long term solution... The language should not be about boycotts, the language should be talking about constructive engagement.

JN: Do you oppose boycott proposals when it comes to academic or just general Israeli goods?

CG: I think it's not an area we should get involved in discussing because I think the moment you start to say I want a boycott or I don't want a boycott or it's right or it's wrong, you're putting yourself in a position where you can't be that honest broker. So I think people can suggest what they want but I think the job of the government in this country is to be part of an international effort to try and take the Middle East towards peace.

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